Curse

Amity and Truth · Feb 04, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Don't be dissing PVE. They're paying half the server and that puts them into the same position as you. You're NOT a superior player if you just play PVP.

Myria · Feb 04, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

My last point is, most of PvE can even be done with an empty skill bar and some heroes and henchies. Try it, go pwn the mursaat in ThK without any of your own skills set. Will take some more time, but you'll succeed.

With a little luck you could probably win a few games of just about any form of PvP with an empty bar and the rest of your team carrying you. So what?

Zinger314 · Feb 04, 2007, 06:21 PM // 18:21

The problem with Guild Wars is that PvE and PvP are "seperate, but equal." It's the core design philosophy; it can't change.

Guild Wars is both PvE or PvP, but never at the same time. PvErs have no right to complain about PvE nerfs, especially considering the fact that PvE is pathetically easy.

Njaiguni Blaze · Feb 04, 2007, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myria

With a little luck you could probably win a few games of just about any form of PvP with an empty bar and the rest of your team carrying you. So what?

Skills don't really matter in PvE in my opinion. Any skill can be used or left out in PvE. And it's not the luck, it's more that PvE is rather easy (with the exception of a few areas) and can be done with crap skillsets or with uber skillsets.

ChaoticCoyote · Feb 04, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

While there are a few instances of this, the OP's argument is usually disingenuous. Most (not all, but def. most) PvE whiners are running the most powerful build they can, abusing skills equally overpowered in PvE and PvP, and then complain when things change. They like to settle into someone else's min-maxed FotM and don't like to try new things out for themselves. Which as mentioned, has nothing to do with "roleplay" or "experience" just "I want mobs to drop like Diablo!"

To generalize PvE players like that is no better than someone who claims that all PvP players are arrogant emote-flashers.

I don't run FotM builds. Ever. I don't even read them. My current Ranger runs a build widely criticised on GuildWiki for not being mini-maxed; my necro runs with a pet even though she isn't using it as a corpse; my Dervish is focused on Lyssa and high-energy attacks, and doesn't even *know* avatars of Grenth, Balthazar, or Melandru.

And I know quite a few other PvE players, including most members of my guild, who do not run FotM.

If GuildWars doesn't care about role-playing, they should stop calling it a role-playing game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze

Skills don't really matter in PvE in my opinion. Any skill can be used or left out in PvE. And it's not the luck, it's more that PvE is rather easy (with the exception of a few areas) and can be done with crap skillsets or with uber skillsets.

Skills matter when they relate to the personality of the character.

As I said in my original post: Many PvE players choose their skills based on entertainment and riole-playign values, not mini-maxing.

Edit By Ashleigh McMahon- Please use the edit button in future to refrain from double posting. Thanks

martialis · Feb 04, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33

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I stopped playing my Ritualist a while back, after skill changes rendered my favorite builds unenjoyable in PvE. I had a specific mental image of who the character was and what her motivations were

Her motivation was to use 1 build and spam 1 overpowered skill? Ritualists have had a year of across-the-board buffs and 1 significant nerf. Rt Lord was ridiculous, and I believe nothing you say.

Njaiguni Blaze · Feb 04, 2007, 06:41 PM // 18:41

So basically, you're saying you don't play FotM builds, but you do get pissed when they "nurf" a skill which caused these FotM builds... I'm confused.

Kook~NBK~ · Feb 04, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze

Skills don't really matter in PvE in my opinion. Any skill can be used or left out in PvE. And it's not the luck, it's more that PvE is rather easy (with the exception of a few areas) and can be done with crap skillsets or with uber skillsets.

If this were true, then there would be no such thing as a "bad PUG."

Blame the Monks · Feb 04, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

If GuildWars doesn't care about role-playing, they should stop calling it a role-playing game.

They don't. GW coined the term "competitive online multiplayer game" -- the difference being "competitive," IE, PvP.

However, since my credibility has been called out, I play both PvE and PvP at a high level. I have earned KoaBD and play for a top 5 gvg guild. I enjoy both types of play, and I still stick to my assertion that for PvE purposes skill balance is almost completely irrelevant.

The challenge in PvE is huge mob size, player stupidity, and insane cheap damage buffs or level design (bosses, doa, etc). The roleplaying element of GW has nothing to do with the way a given skill is balanced -- it is all about the storyline, who you play with, and what you imagine. Nerfing ritual lord doesn't change any of that. And you can always play serpent's quickness + attuned.

Balance for PvP, regardless of the implications on PvE.

Zinger314 · Feb 04, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

To generalize PvE players like that is no better than someone who claims that all PvP players are arrogant emote-flashers.

I don't run FotM builds. Ever. I don't even read them. My current Ranger runs a build widely criticised on GuildWiki for not being mini-maxed; my necro runs with a pet even though she isn't using it as a corpse; my Dervish is focused on Lyssa and high-energy attacks, and doesn't even *know* avatars of Grenth, Balthazar, or Melandru.

And I know quite a few other PvE players, including most members of my guild, who do not run FotM.

That's completely and utterly ignorant. Unlike other "role-playing" games which focus more on the individual character (*coughWoWcough*), RP characters a 1/8th of a group. Without 7 other people, one person is nothing. There is little individuality. I wonder; how many groups have accepted your "non-FOTM" builds for somewhat difficult missions (i.e. end of Factions/Nightfall)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

If GuildWars doesn't care about role-playing, they should stop calling it a role-playing game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

Skills matter when they relate to the personality of the character.

I'd like to see you explain your "necro runs with a pet even though she isn't using it as a corpse" in terms of RP.

Guild Wars is completely counter-intuitive to true "role-playing." The lore is undeveloped and inconsistant, and there's no indivituality.

On topic, the PvP aspect of Guild Wars is not the same as the RP aspect, obviously. Character development is non-existant, and there is obviously no lore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

They don't. GW coined the term "competitive online multiplayer game" -- the difference being "competitive," IE, PvP.

Actually, they coined "co-operative online role-playing game."

Of course, that was before Prophecies, when PvE was actually good.

Both versions are still politically incorrect.

EDIT: Apparently according to the post below me. it's both. Hmm. In that case, it's redundant.

Skuld · Feb 04, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

To generalize PvE players like that is no better than someone who claims that all PvP players are arrogant emote-flashers.

I don't run FotM builds. Ever. I don't even read them. My current Ranger runs a build widely criticised on GuildWiki for not being mini-maxed; my necro runs with a pet even though she isn't using it as a corpse; my Dervish is focused on Lyssa and high-energy attacks, and doesn't even *know* avatars of Grenth, Balthazar, or Melandru.

And I know quite a few other PvE players, including most members of my guild, who do not run FotM.

If GuildWars doesn't care about role-playing, they should stop calling it a role-playing game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Guild Wars is the name of a series of Competitive/Cooperative Online Role-Playing Games (CORPG) created by ArenaNet.

They took care not to call it just an "RPG". If you want to run around with crappy builds and be clueless, good for you, but don't complain about things you don't understand.

Coloneh · Feb 04, 2007, 06:53 PM // 18:53

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Originally Posted by Savio

Name a nerf that completely killed off a attribute line to the point where you couldn't play that line still.

inspiration magic.

but i tend to disagree with the OP on a few things. I dont see GW as being about "role playing" i would stick with D&D if i wanted role playing. but but PvP players really need to pull their heads out of their asses, you cant use just anything in PvE. and dont bring up the argument "i can beat abadon with frenzy as my only skill", because the rest of your team has a skillbar and could do it without you. A-net needs to take a little more care about their changes, and have regular updates, like any other game.

Zinger314 · Feb 04, 2007, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

inspiration magic.

Savio was refering to PvE in the quoted post. The Inspiration nerfs had no effect on PvE. (actually, Inspiration was buffed for Hero usage in the test skill balance...)

MegaMouse · Feb 04, 2007, 07:00 PM // 19:00

First I PVP only when my guild needs me as a backup in their group. My main love is and always will be PVE. When Guild Wars original came out I thought that it would be more PVE orientated, which for a time it was. But it shifted focus when Factions came out to PVP. I hardly go into cantha mainly because I dislike grinding for points that I will never use again. And Elona is worse because to continue the story line and even get to certian areas you must grind to get to R8 in the Sunspear title track, not my idea of fun at especialy since it cannot be maxed by a non-Elonian.
On skill sets, that was the whole original idea of the game, not to see who could just own each other and then have the loser whine about beign overpowered, but in several gaming magazines and even a few interviews the origial idea of Guild Warswas who could use the limited skills they were given to their fullest. Due to a rather large number of nerfs several classes have been rendered useless. This game should be rolled back and the skills put back to where they originaly were so that everyone can enjoy it to its fullest once again. The only changes that should have been made were to those skills that truly were broken and not the ones that were working as the designers originaly intended. I would love to see someone try to take on the Mursaat without any skills on their bar at all. I say it is impossible if the group refuses to keep the one idiot up and running.
Like I have said in several other posts, the nerf bat needs put away for good, let the PVP use the skills as they were meant to be, and just try to find something that can counter it. This game is and was all about skill not about how much a whiny group can get nerfed because they do not want to find counters to skills that continue to kick their butts.

Mega Mouse

Zinger314 · Feb 04, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaMouse

Like I have said in several other posts, the nerf bat needs put away for good, let the PVP use the skills as they were meant to be, and just try to find something that can counter it. This game is and was all about skill not about how much a whiny group can get nerfed because they do not want to find counters to skills that continue to kick their butts.

Mega Mouse

Just because a skill has counters doesn't mean that it's overpowered (I really, really hate it when people use that as an argument. It appears to be the hip thing these days...)

Avatar of Grenth can be countered by conditions, hexes, and Weapon of Warding. Does that make it not overpowered. HELL NO.

Burst Cancel · Feb 04, 2007, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

Skills matter when they relate to the personality of the character.

As I said in my original post: Many PvE players choose their skills based on entertainment and riole-playign values, not mini-maxing.

If RP is all that matters, why do you care about the effectiveness of the skill? Skill balance doesn't even affect you if RP is your goal, unless certain skills are actually *removed* from the game, so I don't see how you have any justification for complaining.

Balance is critical in PvP, anyone who doesn't understand this has never done anything meaningfully competitive in their life, or at least has never thought about the nature of said competition. When you are competing against others, you will use every advantage you can possibly get, so if some subset of skills are strictly better than other skills, only that subset of skills will be played, and the competitive arena stagnates. It's ridiculous to say, "well, if PvE players can intentionally underpower themselves, PvP players can too" - they *can*, but they have every reason in the world *not to*.

It isn't a matter of PvE vs. PvP or hating, or even elitism. It's a matter of skill balance mattering far, far more in PvP than in PvE.

FoxBat · Feb 04, 2007, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

To generalize PvE players like that is no better than someone who claims that all PvP players are arrogant emote-flashers.

I'm only generalizing about PvE whining at the slighest nerf, not just any PvE player. I even play PvE too.

Quote:

I don't run FotM builds. Ever. I don't even read them. My current Ranger runs a build widely criticised on GuildWiki for not being mini-maxed; my necro runs with a pet even though she isn't using it as a corpse; my Dervish is focused on Lyssa and high-energy attacks, and doesn't even *know* avatars of Grenth, Balthazar, or Melandru.

Can you point out some nerfs that are seriously impacting your not-maxed builds then?

The nerfs hardly seem to matter for the good builds even... searing flames is still the best nuke in groups, sandstorm recharge doesn't matter when it and an echo are enough to kill anything anyway. Bloodsong nerf doesn't matter because spirit spammers suck in most PvE, even RaO is still useable because you don't have to maintain it 24/7 between mob fights like a PvP player does. You might have a point if your weak motivation healer went to worse to combat zergway or paragonway (and I don't think this is the best solution to that issue), but that seems to be the only nerf of the ones people are complaining about. So a lot of the nerfs don't even effect dominant PvE builds significantly and yet people still complain about them on mere principle.

It's also noteable that in every update, Anet has buffed more skills than nerfed, so it's generally people very stuck in playing a specific way who don't want to adapt to the new options opened up to them that have issues. I spend all my PvE money on skills instead of armor, trying out different things, so I like when new skill options are opened up just as much as the old dominant ones are weakened (I do care about min/maxing somewhat in PvE, and it's much more fun when you have choices instead of a narrow set of useful skills)

zwei2stein · Feb 04, 2007, 07:47 PM // 19:47

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Originally Posted by unienaule

Ok. Here's how it works. The reason PvE people seem to only complain that skills shouldn't get nerfed is because the broken/overpowered skills are NEVER USED AGAINST THEM (the PvEers) EFFECTIVELY IF AT ALL. If the monster AI took new builds and exploited the current skill changes like players do, PvEers would demand the same nerfs that PvPers do.

Oh come on, every PvEr had his chance to experience:

* SF nuker (aka Djinns)
* Sandstorm nuker (aka Crags)
* Iway warrior (aka white mantle)
* Ranger Spikers (Aviacra ranger groups)
* Touchers (Stygian something)

Aditionally, most l28 monsters use normal skills with their attribute advantage in way that makes em overpowered so much that it aint pretty.

...

All theese were using said builds pretty effectivelly and with monster level advantages quite deadly.

Yet you saw next to noone complaining about PvEing versus em.

Zehnchu · Feb 04, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

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Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze

My last point is, most of PvE can even be done with an empty skill bar and some heroes and henchies.

Take Shiro on at the end of Factions and at the GoM with an empty skill bar, DoA, Fow, UW, RoT, let me know when you beat all those with an empty skill bar.

The Ernada · Feb 04, 2007, 08:13 PM // 20:13

I read the thread and still have yet to see how role playing has anything to do with complaining about nerfs. How does the strength/weakness of a skill affect your roleplaying? I remember as a kid swinging a wooden sword that did only slight damage to my brother's face and still had fun "roleplaying" Yes, that's an extreme case but you guys are an extreme lot.

No skill has been destroyed to the point in PVE where you can't use it and STILL roleplay. And how about this? How about roleplaying a character who somehow got injured and is now a bit weaker but fighting with more strategy to compensate? Yes, it all sounds silly but so is blaming nerfs hampering your ability to RP.

And really, GW is horrible for roleplaying. I've played a lot of other MMO's that were far far better for it. And I enjoyed it too. So don't try to label me as a purely PVP player shoving around his elitism on the "PVE noobs" It really is just about caring about the balance and a little bit of a nerf hardly matters much in PVE. That may sound elitist but it's a fact. And the fact is that PVE is designed so that everyone can beat it. There is no hard mode so it's stuck on easy mode.